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Saturday, March 28, 2015

Irish Independent: Readers Have a Lot to Say About Water Bill Controversy



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News Irish Water Crisis
Sunday 29 March 2015

Water bills to be taken from wages 'without any court argument'

Niall O'Connor, Paul Melia and Charle Weston

PUBLISHED28/03/2015 | 02:30
  • 289COMMENTS

Right To Water protesters in O'Connell Street, Dublin last week. Photo: Sam Boal/Photocall IrelandOPEN GALLERY 1
Right To Water protesters in O'Connell Street, Dublin last week. Photo: Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland
People who don't pay their water charges face having their bills deducted from their wages and social welfare payments without getting a chance to argue their case in court.

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The Government is intent on ensuring Irish Water can achieve "full compliance" and is preparing "major legislation" which will hand new powers to judges.
As revealed earlier this week, under the proposals Irish Water will be allowed to obtain a court order to deduct the charges.
However, it has emerged that this may be done without the need for a court hearing.
Hearing
Instead, a "list system" is set to be introduced whereby dozens of non-payers will have their bills deducted in a single court hearing.
Government officials are keen to avoid the need for individual court appearances due to the impact it would have on the court system.
"We can't have a situation whereby people are brought to court one by one," said a source.
"Achieving full compliance once bills start to take effect has to be the aim here."
But sources last night emphasised the legal complexities still surrounding the measures, which have not yet gone before Cabinet.
As revealed by the Irish Independent this week, the new law will allow for Irish Water to apply to the District Court for an attachment order if the utility can provide clear evidence of non-payment.
If the bill is left unpaid for a year and there is no engagement with the utility, a €30 fine will be applied to one-adult households, and €60 for a house with two or more adult occupants.
If the householder continues to refuse to engage, they can be taken to court, where judges will have the power to order an attachment of earnings, meaning the outstanding charges will be deducted before the defaulter's salary or pension is paid.
The court will also be able to register the charge against the property, preventing it from being sold unless the debt is paid.
People on social welfare will pay a small amount per week, leaving them with a minimum of €186 to live on.
Meanwhile, director of policy at the Free Legal Advice Centres human rights group Paul Joyce said the move to introduce attachments of earnings orders payments needs to be carefully considered. Attachment of earnings orders have been used in Britain since the 1970s in debt cases, Mr Joyce said.
He warned that using attachments of earnings orders would not work for the self-employed, as they usually do not have one employer.
"Using attachments of earnings orders is a big step to take. It should be only used as an absolutely last resort.
"It would be a problem for people in work as it may not go down well with your employer, especially if you handle money as part of your job," Mr Joyce said.
Attachment of earnings orders are already used in family law cases, where a parent or spouse fails to comply with court orders to pay the likes of maintenance.
And the Revenue Commissioners can direct an employer, pension provider or the Department of Social Protection to deduct the property tax at source and have it sent to the tax authorities when people refuse to pay.
However, employers are not aware if the deduction to pay the property tax is voluntary or has been ordered by Revenue in the face of a resistance to pay, a spokeswoman for Revenue said.
Revenue can get an attachment of earnings order for all other taxes too, but tends to operate to specific guidelines, the spokeswoman added.
But there is no legal facility to have attachments of earnings orders put in place when a debt judgment is made against a consumer, despite calls for this from a number of groups.
Irish Independent

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Comments that are judged to be defamatory, abusive or in bad taste are not acceptable and contributors who consistently fall below certain criteria will be permanently blacklisted. Comments must be concise and to the point. The moderator will not enter into debate with individual contributors and the moderator’s decision is final. The comment facility is removed after 48 hours.


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Arcants
In all my time looking at the comments on this site have I seen so many for the one cause.

ROBERT25
It's simple really the government are saying we have the numbers to ride rough shod over you and we will. Let's see on both counts.

Hibernus
One of the most revealing things about the anti-government campaign being waged by Sinn Fein and the Trotskyites is their choice of the cause which they have chosen to espouse.
Despite the big improvements in the country's fortunes there are still many problems in our society which need to be tackled. But what do the Provos and the Trots choose as their headline cause? - a modest contribution towards the supply of water and waste water removal.
Populist opportunism at its worst.
When people are next choosing a government they will look at the totality of the government's achievements and at the credibility of the opposition's policies and will make their choice based on what they see.



BredaM58
@Hibernus I don't think the majority of the electorate is as pragmatic as you. A large percentage wants revenge and don't care who it replaces this government with.

Arcants
@Hibernus Modest, in three years time it will be at least 1000 euro a year. Mark my words this is a sweetener and then when you sign up they have you for life and you need water to sustain life. You would do to think again at what these cowards are doing to the Irish people. 


Endaendascams
@Arcants @Hibernus According to a Government source on these threads, households are currently being subsidised to the tune of  €840 a year for domestic water consumption/waste removal, added to which must be the €260/€160 that they must now pay directly from their pockets. That would make the current real charge/cost €1000 per year for single occupant households and €1100 for all others. If Irish Water is to stand on its own two feet, the subsidy will eventually have to be withdrawn, meaning householders will be expected to pay the charges directly and in full, as well as continuing to pay into the Exchequer that which they are already paying and which is currently being refunded to them via the subsidies cited by our resident Government source. Of course, not only will direct charges continue to rise after 2018, but so too will the amount householders must pay into the Exchequer continue to go up. In that way, both Irish Water and their patrons in Government will win, whilst those whose citizenship has been degraded by naming them 'customers' of Irish Water will lose, with those least able to pay losing the most. Clever, huh!


BredaM58
@Endaendascams Just because a poster is better informed than you doesn't mean he's a"Government source". You should check out the business section here too.

Barn_Swallow
@Hibernus When this government was formed it had two important targets
(1)Restore confidence in Irish democracy
(2)Rebuild the economy.

The first target required that those responsible for the economic collapse be brought to account. This has not happened in any real shape or form.
As far as the second is concerned low euro interest rates and emigration have been more responsible for recovery than any government actions

vanjasper
@Hibernus Not all those against this government are Trots, or SF or Leftie Looneys. Many would not have given a care before about politics. But this government has given everyone in this country an education in how to spin and lie. That's what has got people's backs up.


BredaM58
@vanjasper @Hibernus If our recovery continues on its current trajectory, do you think voters could be immature enough to replace the current government with a hodge podge coalition, just to satisfy its lust for revenge?


oOAnnOo
What part of the people have no more to give does this gov. not understand.



Quango_Tango

When you not only have a job but a very well paying one, what's to understand?

It's a bit like toothache, I know it's painful but I don't have any pain at the moment so what the hell....

pickthenkick
The annoying part of this controversy is knowing all constitutional challenges brought, the government will be defending their actions by the usage of public funds. Just a pity there aren't any true statesman/women among our politicians with moral believes the to resign.    



iamjames
Maybe as the blueshirts try to hijack the 1916 ceremonies the people of the republic should live up to the ideals of the 1916 leaders and disrupt the blueshirt efforts? A 2016 version of 1916. 

paddyjoe
No a Low Cost Rain Water Harvesting System.collecting 100% from your roof surfaces.not bad.Just check it out.



trekie
Slow down folk.... This government is a lot of things but it is not stupid. They know only too well a water tax deduction coming straight out of  wages or social welfare will be a weekly reminder of who not to vote for in the next election.
This is just a scare story to try to get people to sign onto Irish Waters books so they can then say they have x amount of people signed up...
if this was actually to happen then the protests on the streets we have witnessed will be nothing to the outrage that will erupt in the population.
 Its a huge gamble by FG and Labor to  fly this kite because it could completely end any slim  chance of re election particularly for Labor who are taking the biggest risk with this stratedgy.  



ballydhob
@trekie They have told too many lies now Trekie. The people don't believe a word that comes out of government buildings anymore. Also, the people are not afraid of their threats either. They are desperate at this stage and they will ram home new laws to take what they want from the people. 


Hibernus
Lots of talk there about "the people". Who are "the people"?


ballydhob
@Hibernus  Look up Ireland and the Irish people on Wikipedia. That would be a good start for you. 


Hibernus
....and will Wikipedia tell me that "the people" all think as you do?


ballydhob
@Hibernus You should go to one of the anti-water charge march and ask the 100,000 people there. I am sure they will give you all the information you need. Be sure to put in for travel expenses though. I am sure the FG office will process that very quickly for you. 


Hibernus
It might surprise you to know that I am not a member of any political party. I'm simply an Irish citizen who has a different view than you do of what's best for our country.


kevin-kelehan
@ballydhob @trekie They told people the charges would be the lowest in Europe and they are. They told people the majority of people would register and 66% have.

Why should people who earn good money have an opt out of making their contribution towards the cost of the water they use. The cost of providing water including investment spend is €1,000 a household, the maximum charge is €160 but a pensioner living alone pays €20. 


Nobody likes taxes or charges but given the choice between charges of €300m with €800m tax cuts and spending rises or no charges only a fool or a politician looking to take focus away from a recovering economywould look for water charges to be abolished. 


ballydhob
@kevin-kelehan You obviously just don't listen or understand the situation at all. If 66% have signed up, then why are government threatening to steal from peoples accounts?

Secondly, it is a FACT that splits from motor tax and VAT already go towards water management schemes in Ireland. Plus 1.2B per year since 1997 has gone into the same water schemes and still half the water in the country leaks back into the ground. 

Finally, government refuse to hold a referendum to protect a national resource which therefore points to the fact that they are not being honest about their plan for IW in the future. 

Now if you can't understand or deal with that then seriously, there is no more I can do for you apart from sending you my best wishes and I hope you start to feel better soon. 


kevin-kelehan
@ballydhob @kevin-kelehan Because the service needs 95% collection to hit its targets. There are many people chancing their arm on not paying because they calculated the government couldn't bring everyone to court individually or because they believe the fiction spun by Paul Murphy or Gerry Adams.

A subsidy of at least €840 a household a year is what is being delivered; if people got an 84% - 98% subsidy on their electricity or gas bills they would be very happy. There is no referendum required because with debt of €500m a year being added to the balance sheet of Irish Water it will always be worthless.

Why should the minority of 20,000 - 30,000 water protesters be listened to versus the 1.23m who have registered, the registered group being the only group that are growing in number.

The water protest issue was only credible when 88,000 people who believed lies about €1,000 a household charges protested for the first and last time in October. Protest numbers down again from the 32,040 in December. Its over if you are stretched for cash get a payment plan, if you are not then just pay the lowest water charges in Europe. 


Endaendascams
@kevin-kelehan @ballydhob If the long-term aim is to create a utility company capable of standing on its own two feet, surely that will mean cessation of the €840 subsidy to every household. We all know that water charges are going to increase after 2018, but even at today's rates, withdrawal of the government subsidy and transfer of the cost onto householders would, based on your figures, see single person households facing bills of €1000 (€840 + €160), whilst for others it would be €1100 (€840 + €260). And even if the so-called conservation grant was to be paid each year, that would sill mean bills of around €1000 per household, even for those with just one occupant.


fedup
@kevin-kelehan @ballydhob  they need €1000 per household but will get a fraction of that
The only reason they are not taking the €1000 is that it would put the country in to recession immediately and that they would be voted out tomorrow.

They are trying to buy time to get in for a bigger pension for themselves and then introduce more right wing fascist policies that are all for the benefit of the ruling classes. Looks like the South American way of doing politics is reaching Ireland.

Downwithitnow
@ballydhob @kevin-kelehan He was on here the other day describing as 'an irrelevance' the €1 billion+ euro ploughed into Irish Water in 2014 to achieve the same number of fixes to leaky pipes as had been achieved the previous year. When I put it to him that the money would have been better spent on hospitals and maintaining rural police stations than propping up a quango that frightens old people out of washing their clothes or flushing their toilets, he said that would be just a waste'. How do you like that?


ballydhob
@Downwithitnow I just hope he has good medical insurance because obviously there will be a need for very strong doses of whatever is required to regain some sense. 

kevin-kelehan

Repeating an inflated cost of the set up costs again and again is an irrelevance; the utility spent €600m on meters and another €180m amalgamating 34 local authority units which required buildings, office fit outs, a unified computer system and the creation of a billing system. Firstly the cost was €760m and secondly these costs are once off. 

Typical water cult member post, exaggerate the numbers and refuse to put them in context. 500 staff no longer work for Irish Water which is a €20m annual saving; the set up costs are back in 9 years. There will however be far more savings from a national utility versus 34 organisations unable to fix a pipe that spans two counties.



ballydhob
@kevin-kelehan And when it is sold off as planned? They didn't tell you that bit at the lower ranked FG supporters meetings, did they? 


kevin-kelehan
@ballydhob @kevin-kelehan In 10 years Irish Water will have €5bn in debt, need to invest €5bn more be losing upwards of €500m a year. Who is going to buy it?

Why have you taken the conversation away from a small minority refusing to pay? 

What is the need to keep shifting the goal posts?

Is it that 20,000 - 30,000 people are simply a small cult claiming a following that does not support them..... 


ballydhob
@kevin-kelehan You are obviously gone too far to be saved. IW is a busted flush before it even got off the ground. If you are happy with knowing they have triple bonus plans, gyms and God knows what else in place even though they have not made a penny in revenue or fixed any leaks then you run along with that. 


quiller
@ballydhob @kevin-kelehan Enda, Joan and Alan will have ridden off into the sunset to join Bertie and Brian on their golden pensions leaving the people with a horrendous legacy .. No doubt their spin merchants, party hacks and advisers will also be looked after.  Millions will be wasted, no minutes, no accountability, just another glorious quango stitched with consultancy contracts and confidentiality clauses. 


Endaendascams
@kevin-kelehan @Downwithitnow @ballydhob Since you're so fond of numbers, here are a few for you to chew over at the Fine Gael water fountain: By 2016, Irish Water will have received €1.3bn from Local Government Fund funds; €945 million from National Pension Reserve Fund funds; €300 million from Irish Strategic Investment Fund funds; €1.1bn of Exchequer funds; €260 million from as yet undisclosed sources to fund the water conservation grant (that's sure to rise once administration costs are factored in); €600 million from private funds, by which is meant banks; €750 million from commercial rates; plus €1.1bn extra funds in exemptions and money to be spent by the CER on consultants to advise on its approach to Irish Water. Let me add that up for you: €6.5 billion. And that's by 2016, mind! You, my friend, can peddle all the Government spin you like, but far from being an efficient and economical vehicle to replace a myriad of local authorities and bring Ireland's water assets and supply up to scratch, Irish Water is nothing short of a bottomless pit into which your heroes are pumping good money after bad. 


jimski-rpm
And most of that money would have been spent through the 31 local authorities if IW didn't exist and been subject to all the inefficiencies that are so prevalent in our local government systems


Downwithitnow
@kevin-kelehan @Downwithitnow @ballydhob Er, no, you described as 'an irrelevance' the spending of €1 billion+ in 2014 to achieve the same number of fixes to leaking pipes as was achieved in 2013, after which you described as 'a waste' the redirection of that money to preventing elderly people from having to languish on hospital trollies or cower in their homes because the local police station had been closed. Channeling Charlie Flanagan and his ilk to denigrate anyone who can see right through you and Fine Gael/Labour simply won't get you out of the hole you've dug for yourself. 

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